I am not really “for” one side or the other in this war. I want peace at least as much as anyone. But I am sick and tired of the facts and the truth being distorted so much that people don’t know any more what’s true and what isn’t.
I believe in few things in this life — not God, not man — but I believe in love, liberty, friendship, art, equality, honesty, and truth. Without truth, the others are a sham.
Here’s a rather long but very instructional online discussion on the subject from yesterday. I hope you enjoy it and learn something from it, my dear readers.
THE LEFT CAN BE JUST AS BLIND AND PREJUDICED AS THE RIGHT. THAT’S WHY I LIKE THE MIDDLE!
RIAZ: You mean you are still surprised by the arrogance of power? The country that has crossed every boundary imaginable in its hubris, is not only the model for NetanYahoo, it is his principal supporter and enabler. I had to leave the USA to be able to see it better, or in the words of Gibran, one cannot see the profile of the mountain when one is on it, one has to take distance…
https://www.facebook.com/ScreamTheNews
BREAKING – Israeli military starts ground operation in Gaza!Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu has ordered the military to start a ground operation in Gaza, his office has announced.”The prime minister and defence minister have instructed the IDF to begin a ground operation tonight in order to hit the terror tunnels from Gaza into Israel,” the statement said as cited by Reuters.Reuters witnesses and Gaza residents reported heavy artillery and naval shelling along the Gaza border.
http://rt.com/news/173700-netanyuahu-ground-operation-gaza
http://www.thewire.com/global/2014/07/israel-launches-ground-troops-in-gaza-strip/374638
http://mondoweiss.net/2014/07/report-israel-conditions.html
Hamas is offering Israel a 10-year truce if it accepts 10 conditions. The Jerusalem Post reports, based on an Israeli Channel 2 newscast, that Azmi Bishara announced the proposal on Al Jazeera television today. Bishara, a former Israeli Knesset member, fled Israel in 2007 after being accused of spying for Hezbollah. He is currently living in Qatar where he is a high level government advisor.
According to Ma’ariv (Hebrew) these are the conditions:
- Withdrawal of Israeli tanks from the Gaza border.
- Freeing all the prisoners that were arrested after the killing of the three youths.
- Lifting the siege and opening the border crossings to commerce and people.
- Establishing an international seaport and airport which would be under U.N. supervision.
- Increasing the permitted fishing zone to 10 kilometers.
- Internationalizing the Rafah Crossing and placing it under the supervision of the U.N. and some Arab nations.
- International forces on the borders.
- Easing conditions for permits to pray at the Al Aqsa Mosque.
- Prohibition on Israeli interference in the reconciliation agreement.
- Reestablishing an industrial zone and improvements in further economic development in the Gaza Strip.
AMY: Tunnels? Why would they send blind rockets if they could use tunnels?
RIAZ: I might have mentioned that The Oxford English Dictionary gives the meaning of Yahoo as follows: A rude, noisy, or violent person.
mid 18th century: from the name of an imaginary race of brutish creatures in Swift’s Gulliver’s Travels (1726).
AMY: Or all of the above. Hard to believe he’s been at the top for so long.
KERRY: Yep.
DENEICE: Once the warring starts, people take sides and rationalize the hatred and violence. I’m pretty naive about this. I don’t understand why the Israelis were able to just take Palestine’s land, those settlements after the WWII Balfour division of the country. It seems like illegal trespass and THEFT. it would be like us just gradually settling into TORONTO or Mexico. Just taking the land that is part of another country.
KERRY: It began day 4 after the declaration that Israel and Palestine were two states…in 48. It was ALWAYS the plan. The freaking HOLY LAND!
DENEICE: I have become areligious the past two years. The religious people are not good examples.
KERRY: You teach a population to be on high alert…as the Zionists did…in Israel…everything becomes a threat. Nope, for the most part…they are not! More people die in the name of god… Who needs that kind of god? Who would create that?
RIAZ: Words and labels are our biggest problems… The current ongoing conflict between the Palestinians and the Israelis is not a war, or to use Gandhi’s words when asked about the war between the nationalist Indians and the British, he said it was a war if they liked to call it one, it was a war between the cat and the mice… War is between roughly equal forces.
DENEICE: Religion seems to me to be used to control people and to justify crimes against others …and the planet. You just claim, “God said it’s okay.” The Hobby Lobby argument basically.
Saw an old LAW & ORDER episode last nite. The defendant had killed his daughter’s science teacher who taught evolution. He said God told him to, that his daughter was being influenced by devils. The mother had strayed and got cancer, and he said God had punished her. The defense attorney used a First Amendment argument, basically you can kill if it’s your sincere religious belief, even if unreasonable. The guy went to prison.
KERRY: Some universal themes. Look at the witch burnings?
RIAZ: A very quick facts sheet review: http://thrivalroom.com/understand-israeli-palestinian-apartheid-11-graphics
DENEICE: I saw a Real Time with Penn Gillette, the magician-atheist. He was the NICEST person on the panel of religious people. He was really KIND, compassionate, and they were extremely judgmental, self-righteous people… rationalizing terrible conduct with their religious beliefs. Bill Maher can be rather mean-spirited, too. I run into people all the time who claim they have The Answer…and others are wrong. And some religious beliefs are pretty dang “inventive.” Harmless to believe in gods and magic until you start killing and hurting others and using that mythology as the rational.
KERRY: Scientology is advertising in our bus stops now.
DENEICE: Here is the list of Senators supporting funding the bombing. Lesser of two evils? I don’t think so! This is what happens when war lobbies own our government. You KNOW what to do…call, write, tweet…and when it comes time to vote…JUST SAY NO!
The following Democratic senators are co-sponsoring the resolution (SR498) supporting Israel’s bombing campaign of civilian population centers. (Remember: if you donate to the Democratic Senate Campaign Committee, you are donating to people who defend the murder of children, so don’t do it!)
Sen. Menendez, Robert [D-NJ], Sen. Menendez, Robert [D-NJ], Sen. Schumer, Charles E. [D-NY], Sen. Blumenthal, Richard [D-CT], Sen. Boxer, Barbara [D-CA], Sen. Nelson, Bill [D-FL], Sen. Franken, Al [D-MN], Sen. Murphy, Christopher S. [D-CT], Sen. Cardin, Benjamin L. [D-MD]. Sen. Casey, Robert P., Jr. [D-PA], Sen. Shaheen, Jeanne [D-NH], Sen. Tester, Jon [D-MT], Sen. Kaine, Tim [D-VA], Sen. Begich, Mark [D-AK], Sen. Coons, Christopher A. [D-DE], Sen. Hagan, Kay [D-NC], Sen. Markey, Edward J. [D-MA], Sen. Mikulski, Barbara A. [D-MD], Sen. Stabenow, Debbie [D-MI], Sen. Pryor, Mark L. [D-AR], Sen. Warner, Mark R. [D-VA], Sen. Landrieu, Mary L. [D-LA], Sen. Gillibrand, Kirsten E. [D-NY], Sen. Schatz, Brian [D-HI], Sen. Hirono, Mazie K. [D-HI], Sen. Heitkamp, Heidi [D-ND], Sen. Klobuchar, Amy [D-MN], Sen. Heinrich, Martin [D-NM], Sen. Levin, Carl [D-MI], Sen. Donnelly, Joe [D-IN], Sen. Bennet, Michael F. [D-CO], Sen. Udall, Mark [D-CO], Sen. Whitehouse, Sheldon [D-RI], Sen. Booker, Cory A. [D-NJ], Sen. Durbin, Richard [D-IL], Sen. Brown, Sherrod [D-OH], Sen. Manchin, Joe, III [D-WV]
KERRY: Thanks.
STEVE B: Where are the Republicans? In the interest of truth, I looked this bill up. I just thought I’d let you know that SR498 was a 2011-2012 bill to “Amend the Rules of the Senate” not a bill “supporting Israel’s bombing campaign of civilian population centers”, and, I believe, was never even passed. It says nothing at all about Israel. Otherwise, many Republicans would have voted for it. Look it up! Don’t you think the truth is important?
AMY: The reason for religion is not to hurt others but to find peace in oneself and with the world around us. It’s horrible how people twist it and use it to advance their own very human agendas, and how that turns so many against it on principle. And how that clouds, if not destroys the actual spiritual gain from practicing.
Sally: More war and more war and more war and more war. Wars for Profit. Here’s why, YET AGAIN:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IemDukEBHJs (“Evil Greed” music video)
STEVE B: Too bad the “Palestinians” won’t stop their hatred and attacks. Not in 67 years! The evil idiots!
GEORGE: A pox on both houses. What do you think that the GOD they both worship thinks? “Thou shall not kill.”
AMY: It’s a two-way street. There’s evil on both sides. I don’t believe in a human-like God that would favor anyone who works against peace.
KERRY: There is an organized when trained, well funded army on one side…and stone throwing, rocket lobbing prisoners on the other, who have been relegated to ghettos, since the 4th day of the creation of two states in 1948. I also do not believe in a human created God…and no longer do I believe that we should keep our mouths closed for fear of retribution. What is happening is organized, methodical genocide in the name of God…Working for peace…without working for social justice…is not working for peace. Surrender…is not peace…it is returning to pre-nazi Germany…to ghettos …to pogroms.
SteveB, you have a priceless opportunity to educate yourself here. I strongly suggest that you take advantage of it.
GEORGE: I’m not defending everything Israel does, not by a long shot. The constant encroachment into Palestinian territory with the new settlements suggests to me that they are operating in bad faith re creation of a viable Palestinian state. But, when Arabs teach their children to hate Jews, and destroy Israel, they are no better. To resort to violence (-What happened to you followers of Gandhi?) when the other side is so much better trained and equipped is not only morally defective, it is sheer madness. There is no keeping score (“It’s 300 to 2″) with violence and death. Are you going to tell me that Hamas would not like the death count to be much higher for Israelis? You are trying to justify violence and death. If the Palestinians were actually non-violent, they would indeed have the moral high ground. As it stands, both sides have blood on their hands, and that is indeed morally “equivalent”…as I stated–a pox on both houses. This is why for the most part I have not taken part in or supported your constant condemnation of Israel, because you refuse to acknowledge the culpability of the other side.
Amen, Amy! I’m pretty sure that my Lord hates what is going on in the Holy Land.
STEVE B: Good job, George. Finally, some reality here! Kerry, you’re the one who needs to study a little history and open your mind. Your prejudices are showing glaringly.
AMY: Wow, SteveB, you’re really not listening, and being really aggressive towards an entire ethnic group as well as an earnest individual here who is making a reasonable argument. I’m surprised to find this attitude here, and disappointed. I can’t believe you are bashing entire religions or countries. That’s why children are being blown to bits on the beach in Gaza this week. Get a grip. As for history, we all need to let that go. That’s the biggest hindrance to peace there.
GEORGE: “Blessed are the peacemakers, they shall be called children of God.” (-Matthew 5: 9)
Thank you for the support, SteveB. I can understand how people feel about an issue like this, it’s easy to want to support the “underdog” in a fight. But, neither side are angels. Setting the moral considerations aside, and looking at the issue from a purely strategic point of view, it makes no sense for the Palestinians to resort to violence when they are so badly outgunned. It is as if Hamas is in cahoots with Israeli hawks like Netenyahu, they play right into his hand and give him justification for what he does, and make him look like some kind of Moshe Dayan (-which he is not-).
KERRY: SteveB, I obediently and loyally defended Israel for decades. I have a bias…its called human rights…and social equality. I will not defend Zionism…nor do I defend any extremist terrorist acts, but …BUT…there comes a time to take a stand…and that time is now. It is not okay to destroy the homes,. hospitals, utilities…and most important the lives of people being forced to live in a damned sardine can.
GEORGE: Kerry, I think that we all support human rights. How about Israel’s right to exist?
KERRY: Let me pose a question in response to that George. Do all Native Americans, not deserve their own nation….THE UNITED STATES? Do not all African Americans not deserve their own state, where they can be safe…respected and equal? Do not ALL people deserve to be safe and free and respected where ever they are ? No…not unless they can find a place…where no one else claimed homes…for generations, before them. What nerve the world had to take from one oppressed people to give to another. We are all doomed to coexist. To share this land that NONE of us own….Do all Jews, Muslims and others…deserve to live in peace? Yes…and whether for good or not, it will be among others, different from themselves…and alike as well.
AMY: You want history? I’m borrowing this because another person put it so well:
It seems that many think that if Palestinians oust Hamas and cease mortar and rocket attacks, Israel would have no need nor desire to engage military action. First of all, military action in Palestine on the part of Israel is never NOT engaged. That is the nature of an Occupation. Whether it’s nightly arrest raids, harassment, restriction of movement thru checkpoint proliferation, denial of work and travel permits, tear gassing, cordoning off of water supplies, forcible seizure of lands, forcible expulsion and bulldozing of homes, uprooting of olive trees (livelihood for most) all the way to full-scale air attacks, bombings, and ground invasions such as the one initiated yesterday, the Israeli military is ENGAGED and acting on orders from the Israeli government and with financial support from all of us, as US taxpayers.
Israel can exist without this brutal occupation. And they have to stop lumping the people in Gaza with Iran.
GEORGE: Kerry, we agree on most of these things. I stated that I did not approve of everything Israel does. They were given a piece of that land for a reason, we all know why. In a perfect world, we would all coexist. I blame it on Western Colonialism just as I’m sure you do, it was the Brits who controlled that land in Palestine. The point, my point, is that Israel now exists, and has a right to, at least as much as anyone else. That includes the Palestinians, as well as Native Americans, and so on. I never said otherwise. I just refuse to demonize Israel as the only aggressor in this sorry state of affairs.
KERRY: George indeed the British “owned” the land…if a nation can own land…there are always people…who were there first. But ..yes, Israel was given to the Jews…because they had been tormented, tortured and murdered throughout history. So were the Muslms…but of course, the Holocaust made it all the more critical. And yet…within days of the creation of the state of Israel…Israel became the aggressor…and nothing justifies the genocide they are perpetrating now. If you listen to the Zionist extremists…they speak of Palestinian babies having tails…just as the Jews were accused of having horns! They have dehumanized an entire people. That is what was done to them! It is not excusable imo
STEVE B: ISRAEL vs. HAMAS
OK, I’m going to try to explain my position on this subject one more time, because I think there is a BIG double standard involved in many people’s thinking. You will have to actively use your imagination and work hard to put yourself in someone else’s place. I’ll try to make that process as easy as possible.
You could live anywhere–the US, Europe, South America, it doesn’t matter. Wherever you live and whatever family you have, or friends, they are there with you, living normal, peaceful lives, or trying to. Peace and safety are things you think you need.
The problem is, there is a gang of young thugs in your neighborhood that keeps firing guns at anyone who happens to be walking by. They have already killed several of your neighbors and wounded others.
Now, what would you expect to happen next? Myself, I think I’d want a police SWAT team to arrive quickly with overwhelming force. I don’t think I’d want the friendly neighborhood meter-maid or beat cop without a gun to come knocking on their door, asking the thugs politely to stop what they are doing. I think i would be happier if none of the police were killed. I happen to know a few of them.
Maybe I’m cold-hearted, but I don’t think I would care so much if some of the gang of punks were injured or killed. I would simply want them to be stopped before they kill me or someone I care for.
You, on the other hand, maybe were brave enough to, once or twice, go knock on their door and ask the gang leader if you could help them and to pretty please stop the killing. It didn’t help. Maybe you and your family are recent immigrants and the gang members and their ancestors lived in your new country a long time ago. In fact, one of the gang members used to live in your nice house before he fell on hard times and went to jail. Now you and you family are all citizens, you love your new country, and, through hard work, you have prospered. You really, really want to help the gang members. Maybe the whole world does. But doesn’t the indiscriminate killing have to stop first?
Think about it! In reality, what exactly would YOU want to happen if this were your neighborhood with the lives of you and your loved ones at stake?
And I will readily admit that many of the gang-members have extremely sad stories. “Jake’s” mother died when he was only three and he had to go live with an abusive uncle. “Roger” has been messed-up and crazy since anyone can remember. He can’t even help it. The leader, “Andre” is just bad, he was always a bully and probably always will be. All of them have been poor all their lives and, sometimes, hungry. Their gang is full of sad stories. No one will give them jobs. Few even like them. They are the outcasts, the dregs of society whether it is their faults or not, and, quite possibly, it isn’t.
They have neighbors in their building. Some of these neighbors are scared to death of the gang. Many have had problems with them. Some of the daughters and even mothers have been raped. Many have been threatened at gunpoint and robbed. Others sympathize with the gang members and even help them at times.
I have to tell you this, though. While the killing of innocent people is going on and will not stop, I don’t give a damn what kind of MFers they are! I want them stopped by any means necessary. Wouldn’t you?
Now, how exactly, in this scenario, is your situation any different than Israel’s on a much larger scale? Especially since the violence has been going on for 67 years and, somehow, the “police” have not been able to establish the peace.
Think about it! In reality, what exactly would YOU want to happen if this were your “neighborhood” with the lives of you and your loved ones at stake?
GEORGE: Kerry, I personally know many Jewish people who disapprove of what Israel is doing, they are sympathetic, ethical people who do indeed care about the plight of the common folk in Gaza and the West Bank. But they also feel that Israel has a right to defend itself , and if that means an incursion to eliminate the people firing the rockets, so be it. Israel the aggressor in 1948? Were they not under attack almost immediately?
STEVE B: Kerry, if a nation cannot own land, are we not in serious trouble? What of the national parks and forests? What of the land where oil drilling, mining, and pipelines are not permitted? Actually, the Israelis weren’t “given” any land. They had to buy what they started with, the rest was spoils of war, as George has indicated. Your excited diatribe has no factual basis in history, Kerry. Why demonize Israel for defending itself? I mean, seriously, what is your reason?
DENEICE: Have you all read or watched The General’s Son? (There is a shorter 28 min video)
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=etXAm-OylQQ (an honest Israeli Jew tells the Real Truth about Israel)
There are good articles here too:
http://www.vox.com/2014/7/17/5902177/9-questions-about-the-israel-palestine-conflict-you-were-too (9 questions about the Israel-Palestine conflict you were too embarrassed to ask)
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miko_Peled (Miko Peled–born 1961 in Jerusalem–is an Israeli peace activist, author, and karate instructor. He has written one book, The General’s Son: Journey of an Israeli in Palestine.)
PAUL: SteveB, Israel did not buy any land. They drove the Palestinians off the property they owned into refugee camps. I kind of agree with your story about the gangs. Only it is the Israeli IDF occupying forces that are the gang that shoots people randomly. But then again, people like you never consider the plight and sufferings of the Palestinians. Only hardcore Zionists thinks that the land Israel is occupying is theirs as the spoils of war. The Israelis are stealing more land from the Palestinians.
KERRY: Thanks, Paul!
STEVE B: Paul, you are very wrong about Israel buying land. But it was not Israel, it was the Zionists who eventually founded Israel. It was only after the Zionists were attacked from all sides, with 10% of their population killed, that “Palestinians” were removed in the interest of safety and peace. Look it up. Even DeNeice’s reference says that, I believe. It is a well-established fact, but another fact that has been forgotten, apparently.
KERRY: If lies could be converted into money…Israel would be the richest state on the planet… The intent of Israel has been since day 1, to erase Palestine…to claim their God given right to Israel…the question is …who the hell told them God’s plan? (assuming there is a god…and that God would be one of hate and murder…which if that is the case…doing Hitlers’ work in Palestine…makes a mockery of 6 million who died!)
STEVE B: You have it exactly backwards, Kerry. I’ve witnessed the events my entire lifetime and many others have too. I can present much more evidence than what follows, believe me. Have you ever read Exodus, by Leon Uris?
Maybe this will refresh a few “memories”:
from: https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090514041306AANzOO1
God said to Abram: “Go from your land … to the land that I will show you.” (Genesis 12:1)
Jews have had a continued presence in Israel for 3,000 years and have never relinquished their claim. Arabs rejected the United Nations resolution of November 29, 1947 calling for the establishment of two states in Palestine, with an all out war to eliminate Jews enacted by the Arab world. After the 1967 War — another war of Arab aggression — Israel recovered a small remnant (13% in whole) of what was promised to them by the UN — eventually handing back the Sinai Desert for peace with Egypt in 1977.
Between 1948-1967, Jordan and Egypt, who governed the West Bank and Gaza, respectively, never offered to surrender those lands to form an independent Palestinian state. No Palestinian organization ever sought an independent state. No Arab country had even suggested its existence. An Arab Palestine has never been the name of any nation or state. ‘Palestine’ was a geographical term used only to identify administrative boundaries within larger empires, nothing more.
The purpose of a separate Palestinian State was defined faultlessly by the late Zoher Moessein, head of PLO bureau of military operation:
“There is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians and Lebanese; we are all members of the same nation. Solely for political reasons are we careful to stress our identity as Palestinians. Since a separate State of Palestine would be an extra weapon in Arab hands to fight Zionism with. Yes, we do call for the creation of a Palestinian state for tactical reasons. Such a state would be a new means of continuing the battle against Zionism, and for Arab unity.”
An offshoot of the occupation myth is the ‘refugee’ fabrication. It states that a significant portion of the Arab population was driven out of Israel by force during the 1948 War. It makes for good copy, but it’s false. Egyptian activist, Edward Said, the most famous of these “refugees,” for example, has been exposed as a fraud, as has this revisionist history.
Mark Twain, a man, one would think, as devoid of ‘imperialistic Zionist’ intentions, wrote in 1867 that Palestine was “a desolate country whose soil is rich enough but is given over wholly to weeds.” Yet, Arabs have claimed that over a million refugees were forced from their homes during the 1948 War of Independence — this number includes Arabs whose relatives entered Israel from 1946 onward. The number of Arab refugees is probably closer to 400,000, most of whom took it upon themselves to flee despite Jewish assurances that they would not be harmed. The contention that Arabs were removed by gunpoint is totally incorrect. Research by the Arab-sponsored Institute for Palestinians Studies in Beirut found that “the majority of the Arab refugees in 1948 were not expelled and 68 percent left without ever seeing an Israeli soldier.”
In her meticulously researched book, From Time Immemorial, Joan Peters proves that a roughly equivalent number of Jewish refugees were expelled from Arab nations during the same period — 120,000 from Iraq alone. It is estimated that one million immigrants were integrated into Israel’s society from 1948-1950.
None of them, on the other hand, were confined for life to refugee camps.
PAUL: Israel did not buy any land. The Palestinians were shoved out in 1947 and 1948 in a civil war the Jews began in 1947. Transjordan, Egypt, Syria and Iraq did not enter the fray until 1948.
STEVE B: You’re simply dead wrong, Paul.
KERRY: I just want the fucking killing of innocent people to end!!!! I could care less about religion…I care about humanity…!
STEVE B: Let’s at least get the facts straight! I think we all want that. Just to get practical here, how can the killing stop without the truth being known and taken into consideration? What plan can work based on lies and misinformation? I haven’t mentioned religion, have I? Are you hung up on that?
KERRY: If you want the facts…try this DeNeice’s reference, above: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miko_Peled. FACTS!!!!! not religion mythology or dogma…FACTS. Because if you take the religion out of the equation…you have HITLER Part 2!! Israel…Exodus…Zionist….= RELIGION!
STEVE B: Kerry, READ! STUDY! Don’t just blabber! Your reference says nothing about what happened in the period we’re discussing.
KERRY: Jewish or Christian…both have members who are ZIONISTS.
STEVE B: Sorry, I don’t follow your “logic”.
KERRY: SteveB, I have been a student of this for 50 + years starting in Hebrew school…when I was 6. I believed the lies too, obediently…until I did not. SO don’t talk to me about blabber. If you actually listened to the entire thing…you would know you are wrong Steve. He speaks to it all. As a former Zionist, and an Israeli…
PAUL: http://www.ameu.org/PDF-Archives/vol46_issue4_2013.aspx (“What Israel’s Best Friend Should Know”, by Mike Peled [mentioned in references, above – Sbaker])
KERRY: Paul, great find! Thank you!
STEVE B: Here’s something from an Army friend of mine who speaks fluent Arabic, has spent a lot of time in the Middle East and has friends on both sides of this conflict. He’s studied the history of the region even more intently than I:
“The Palestinians were thrown off their land so the Jews could have it.”
This is probably the key sentence. In point of fact the Palestinians were not “thrown off their land”. While the Vilayet of Palestine was part of the Ottoman Empire then a British Protectorate and up until 1947 the Zionists were very careful to buy land in Palestine. I have seen nothing reputable that disputes this. In 1947 five Arab Armies invaded Israel with the stated intent of destroying the fledgling State of Israel. The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem at the same time called for Jihad to exterminate the Jews.
( I am shooting from memory here but pretty sure I can back all this up.) In point of fact the Arabs/Palestinians planned to exterminate the Jews in Palestine. When things didn’t go exactly as planned some 500,000 Palestinians, but not all, fled the area. When the dust settled, the Israelis who had lost some 10 % of their population, wouldn’t let them come back. The Palestinians who remained are still living in Israel.
This is not unprecedented. All the Sudetenland and East Prussian Germans fled the Russians in 1945 and were never allowed to return. Muslims and Hindus fled India and Pakistan in 1949 and never returned. Over 1 million were killed. Greeks fled Turkey and vice versa in 1920 never to return. Approximately 1 million Pied Noir French fled Algeria in 1968 (?) never to return. There are more but you get the idea. In every other case some other country accepted these refugees and they became part of the receiving country.
The big difference here is that the rest of the Arab world never accepted the Palestinians. They have lived in refugee camps since they 1947. What we see today are third generation or younger descendants.
So what is the solution? I don’t know. Israel is a small country of some 5 or 6 million surrounded by 500 million Moslem Arabs. This idea that they are so powerful and the Arabs so weak is not exactly accurate. Maybe for the moment, but quantity has a quality of it’s own.
I’ll save the rest for later, but I think if you make the assumption that the Arabs were driven from their land that may lead you down the wrong path.
KERRY: SteveB, no one is better indoctrinated than the military. Give me a break.
STEVE B: Sorry, Paul and Kerry, this was AFTER the Zionists were attacked by the “Palestinians” and all their Arab neighbors. What would you expect the Jews to do? Be exterminated without a fight? You have to be kidding! Your extreme prejudices are showing, Kerry! You know nothing about my friend. You see? You don’t know or can’t admit when you know absolutely nothing about a subject or a person. That’s what prejudice is, my friend.
KERRY: Ah, Steve, as is your ignorance….you see… prejudice…pre- judgement…is making a position before knowing the facts. I lived with the very same belief you hold now….and made an educated choice…to re think…. no prejudice at all. No prejudgment…
STEVE B: I love all people. I’ve lived all over the world and now live in Bolivia. I love the “Palestinians”, but their hatred of the Jews, their religion, conditions, history, and leaders have forced them into one violent, tragic mistake after another. They are the ones who suffer most from this, so I can understand your sympathies, but that doesn’t change the truth of the situation, which is easily learned and grasped. For instance, it is a blatant lie that Zionists did not buy land until they were attacked and had to do what they did, pretty much, in self defense. Try hard to put yourself in THEIR place, just as I often put myself in the unfortunate “Palestinians” place and wonder’ “Where is their Gandhi?”
PAUL: The Zionists did not buy land. Read the article for which I gave you the link. SteveB, you are following the Israeli pattern, when someone speaks the truth, you attack them for being prejudiced. The Israelis have been rewriting history for years. This is the legal mechanism used to take the land from the Palestinians. First they were chased off their land, then the land was declared abandoned and claimed by Israel.
(1948 “Abandoned Areas Ordinance” from Laws of the State of Israel)
The Zionist began the attacks, SteveB. As Miko Peled, whose father was an Israeli General at the time, has clearly stated. SteveB, you are apparently unwilling to read what Miko wrote, I gave you the link.
STEVE B: Oh, the old rewriting history trick, huh? Ridiculous. Get serious, please. This is high school level stuff, Paul. The truth, please!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_land_purchase_in_Palestine (“Jewish land purchase in Palestine”)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War (“1948 Arab–Israeli War”)
KERRY: SteveB, I loved looking at your page…and clearly, you have a love of people and social justice. I was happy to see that. I also understand your compassion for Israel, as most of the world to one degree or another felt both guilt and sympathy for their experience. All that said, I could not disagree with you more on their status…how they came to accumulate land…and at what cost. To hear intelligent Israeli women…and sympathizers…claim Palestinian children have tails…TAILS…. that they are used as human shields? This is the propaganda Hitler used…when justifying the murder of the Jews, Gypsies et al. all I can ask is that you imagine…what might you think…if you thought independently …apart from the emotional pleas of Israel?
I was taught the Palestinians were nomads. They had no permanent homes. They never settled until Israel became a state. You need only look at their home. Orchards they tended for generations…to know that is a lie. Israel…is plowing down their homes THEY are re-writing history. There will be no Palestinians in that story.
STEVE B: Kerry, I appreciate you comments. If you knew me you’d know that I’m as free a thinker as you will ever find. I don’t buy propaganda, which is why I don’t like the propaganda I’m being referred to in this discussion. If we disagree, we disagree. No problem. But let’s at least get our facts straight, shall we? I’m being told what I know are untruths here.
KERRY: As I am, Steve. We are reading two different stories…and we might never agree…but that is almost irrelevant…what matters is dead children…and the hatred that grows…when children and elders are slaughtered.
STEVE B: So unfortunately, the “Palestinians” (I don’t really know what to call them any more) are reaping what they have sown, they are the ones re-writing the history I’ve known all my life and I hate to see that. You should not let your sympathy for them and whatever you feel for the Jews distort the truth, at least. Where is their Gandhi? That is their only way out but their leaders and religion prevent that, I fear.
KERRY: Steve, where is the Israeli Gandhi? They have offered solutions for half a century. The only one Israel accepts is surrender…and they know …they will be eliminated if they surrender.
STEVE B: The British were not the ones who needed a Gandhi, nor were white South Africans, nor whites in America during the civil rights struggle, nor the Roman occupiers of Jerusalem, so long ago. Given my analogy above, given the true history of the situation, how do the Jews not have a right to defend themselves with whatever force it takes?
My analogy might be even more apt if you would think of the “Palestinians” as American Indians who would suddenly start acting like the Arabs, lobbing missiles at YOUR city, kidnapping and killing random people, blowing themselves up in Times Square, at the Oscars, at the Stupor Bowl. I believe they would have just as much right, or more, to do that than the “Palestinians”. Are you seriously telling me that you would support the violence against YOU and not want the SWAT team to be sent in? If so, I am incredibly incredulous!
KERRY: The 4 children on the beach…were knowingly slaughtered…mowed down…after being watched …identified…murdered. Because …hate allows for such things…. The Jews…of all peoples…should know better. that is why I do not speak of the Jewish state. I speak of the Zionist state…because to be a Jew…is to have compassion…to lift up…to share…to be a Zionist Nationalist…is to put the state above the people….as the Nazis did.
STEVE B: The unfortunate children on the beach who didn’t mind their father — you know no such thing. Your prejudices are showing again.
In my lifetime, I have seen Israel seriously try to make and maintain peace many times. Not the Arabs. Israel has bent and show a willingness to bend. Not the Arabs. They seek only the destruction of Israel and complete genocide from all I can gather. You know that, don’t you? The latest example was the cease-fire the other day. Hamas kept firing rockets. The idiots want war! There is such a thing as having compassion for one’s own children. Where is that in “Palestine”?
KERRY: I know about the children from an eye witness report from NBC.
The Zionist army is the best trained, best funded army in the world…they have no need to do wholesale slaughter…they have transferred all of their hate…and fear…upon these brown skinned people…who are exactly …as they are…with blood, and love and family…and yes…hate. okay, done for now…I can only handle so much…before my heart breaks…and my anger rages .. .We can talk again …but now…I need to step back. Even I …can say things out of anger…that I cannot take back. I choose not to do that.
STEVE B: None of your commendable sympathies change the nature of the fight for survival!
KERRY: Damn!!1! and none of your compassion…justifies your brutality…
STEVE B: And, let me guess, that eyewitness was a “Palestinian” on the beach? How could he know what went on on that particular ship at that particular time? Believe me, no eyewitness on that ship is saying any such thing, are they? The truth takes discrimination of mind, not discrimination of heart.
And I have no brutality in this matter and you know it. I only speak the unfortunate truth. Life is what it is. It is not a picnic, as much as we might wish it to be so from the cozy confines of our nice houses.
KERRY: The best thing in the universe will be when humanity finally destroys itself…and it will…over money…because that is the freaking bottom line…I just hope we do it without taking the rest of creation with us.
PAUL: Sorry, SteveB, those purchases ended in 1948. In 1947 the Jews only owned 7% of the land it what would become Israel. Miraculously in 1948 they owned 80% of that land, they did not buy the land.
http://savingisrael.wordpress.com/1947-un-partition-plan-for-palestine/ (“Two States: One Arab, One Jewish – Why Israel Exists”)
At the time of the U.N. partition, in 1947, about one third of the inhabitants of the British Mandate of Palestine (roughly the area west of the river Jordan) were Jews who owned and lived on about 7 percent of the Palestine Mandate land. The remaining 93 percent of the land was owned and occupied by Arabs who then comprised about two thirds of the total population of the Palestine Mandate. Despite the clear predominance of Arab land ownership and population, the UN Partition Plan set aside roughly the western 57 percent of Palestine for the intended Jewish State and the remaining eastern 43 percent for the intended Arab State.
STEVE B: Jeez, of course they ended in 1948, Paul. That’s exactly what I’ve been saying. You said they didn’t exist. How am I wrong and you right? They ended in 1948 because the war broke out! Israel was attacked from all sides! You think that doesn’t matter? Who were they going to buy from when everyone in the land, including themselves, were refugees of war. Please study your high school history. They ended up “owning” the land because they won the damned war, despite great odds, through heroic fighting and great losses. But you aren’t about to grant them one damned thing are you. Why? After the war, who was there to sell land? What a joke!
By the way. I’m for a two state solution. I think some land should be traded for peace. I think a way must be found for the “Palestinians” to have a better life. Unfortunately, this is not what their terrorist leaders want. Maybe if they would just cool the attacks and terrorism. WHERE IS THEIR GANDHI?
KERRY: They offered a 10 point solution that is not being discussed. Arafat also had solutions…the only one that will be accepted is surrender.
STEVE B: Surrender is irrelevant when you are in the position the “Palestinians” are in, isn’t it. Or do you mean the surrender of Israel and the deaths of millions–AGAIN!
PAUL: Israel began the Civil, the Arab neighbors joined in later. I guess we own Italy, Germany and Japan then huh. Didn’t we win that war? What happened was the Zionists drove them off their land and then declared the land abandoned. SteveB, have you noticed that Israel is still taking land? They like to take the land where the water is located. Israel will chip away at the West Bank until there is nothing left on which a second state could exist. Most of the terrorism takes place at the hands of the IDF, the occupying force, and the Israeli settlers.
STEVE B: WRONG AGAIN, PAUL! PLEASE STUDY YOUR HIGH SCHOOL HISTORY. IT’S ALL THERE!
PAUL: The Israelis have bulldozed down about 20,000 Palestinian homes on the West Bank. Are you telling me that is not an act of terror.
DENEICE: They need to share, stop fighting and play fair
PAUL: because you do not have an understanding of history, SteveB, does not mean I am in error.
STEVE B: You folks are being idealistic, not realistic. “All is fair in love and war.” Tell me the truth — do either of you really know ANYTHING about war? Have you ever been in one? I believe I am speaking to prejudice, not reason and knowledge. Your emotions are so carried away that your thoughts are not tied to reality. Excuse me.
Paul, I have proven beyond the shadow of a doubt that you have been in error this entire discussion. You don’t see that?
PAUL: You are speaking of prejudice. I am without a shadow of doubt sure you are wrong, SteveB.
STEVE B: Were you right about the Israelis buying land? LOL!
PAUL: You have proven nothing. You ignored all the information you were provided. You said the Zionists bought the land. The truth is, other than 7% of the land they did buy, they took the rest.
STEVE B: This discussion proves that you were in error and even you admitted it previously when you backtracked. I’m getting tired of the BS. Ciou ciou!
PAUL: I did not backtrack on anything. Your assertion that the Zionist bought the land on which Israel resides is clearly not true.
STEVE B: I rest my case. You guys have a great evening and peaceful dreams.
KERRY: SteveB…nothing much has been proven except that people will continue to kill people for reasons they choose to believe are just…when there is NO justice in killing.
DENEICE: No name calling.
PAUL: You did not rest your case, it fell flat.
KERRY: And try washing the blood off your hands SteveB…
STEVE B: Blood on my hands? LOL! Much has been proven, much has been ignored. Prejudice is blind to truth.
DENEICE: So what follows is not my opinion on who is right, but five things that have helped me to frame my own views on the subject. I share them merely in the hope that they might help others.
http://www.libdemvoice.org/israelpalestine-trying-to-find-some-balance-32981.html (“Israel/Palestine: Trying to Find Some Balance”)
KERRY: SteveB, you started by calling me an idiot…I should have ignored you from that point on.
STEVE B: OK, Kerry, that proves it. I called the Palestinians idiots. Not you. READ!
PAUL: You are pretty blind, SteveB.
DENEICE: Children of Peace simply refuses to take sides. A UK-based organisation that aims to protect all children in Israel and Palestine – regardless of community, culture, faith or gender – it works with grassroots communities to build friendship and trust.
http://positivenews.org.uk/2011/community/youth/3518/children-of-peace-new-hope-for-palestine-and-israel (Children of Peace: “New Hope for Palestine and Israel”)
You have to see both sides and attach to neither and commit to peace and nonviolence. It’s Hatfield & McCoys with its own version of injustice and atrocity.
PAUL: SteveB adheres to the principle that might makes right. Which means the Israelis can do what every they want to the Palestinians and take what they want from the Palestinians and it is alright, because they have a big army.
DENEICE: Please stop the hostile speech. Please
STEVE B: DeNeice, where there is a right and a wrong, not to choose sides is cowardice. Seek the right. Seek the truth. It is so much more important than blind idealism.
DENEICE: That is dead end thinking IMO.
PAUL: It is cowardice not to look at the merits of both sides.
KERRY: Taking a walk…
STEVE B: I have looked at the merits of both sides in this conflict all my long life.
[later, via PM’s]
STEVE B: DeNeice, (do people ever call you Deenee, or Dini–don’t know how to spell it–but that’s what we called by dear Aunt DeNeice)…enjoyed the discussion. Thank you.
I have one very important question for you. At the end of the discussion, I said, “Where there is a right and a wrong, not to choose sides is cowardice. Seek the right. Seek the truth. It is so much more important than blind idealism.”
And you said, “That is dead end thinking IMO.”
What exactly did you mean by that? Do you really believe that there are NOT situations where one side is right, regardless if that is the case or not in the instance under discussion? Do you really feel it is not of the utmost importance to discover the truth and determine if this is the case?
You seem very idealistic to me, which is commendable. Do you sincerely believe that to seek what is right, to seek truth is “dead end thinking”?
Please, how can that possibly be? I feel this is very important. Thank you.
DENEICE: I’m out.
Advice for children: “Don’t argue. Don’t bully. Don’t be bossy. Don’t hit. Don’t call each other mean names. Don’t talk badly about your friends. Take turns. Be fair and SHARE with everyone. Don’t leave anyone out. Help those who need help. Have fun.”
STEVE B: I don’t know why, but i expected better from you. I am disappointed.
Wow, DeNeice, I just discovered that you removed that wonderful discussion! I am even more disappointed in you and your disregard and disrespect for truth. That’s OK, though, I’ll be posting the whole thing on my blog and in my Facebook group later today. I think it is so highly instructional.
I am not really “for” one side or the other in this conflict. I want peace at least as much as anyone. But I am sick and tired of the facts and the truth being distorted so much that people don’t know any more what’s true and what isn’t.
I believe in few things in this life — not God, not man — but I believe in love, liberty, friendship, art, equality, honesty, and truth. Without truth, the others are a sham. I hope you understand that, but, apparently, by your actions and words, you do not.
And, in the interest of truth, I just thought I’d let you know that SR498 (which you entered into the discussion as a bill allowing the bombing of Palestinian children) was a 2011-2012 bill to “Amend the Rules of the Senate” and, I believe, was never even passed. It says nothing at all about Israel. Otherwise, many Republicans would have voted for it. Look it up! And you don’t think the truth is important??
DENEICE: I didn’t remove it
STEVE B: I have no access to it this morning. All I get from Facebook is:
“Sorry, this page isn’t available The link you followed may be broken, or the page may have been removed.”
DENEICE: I changed the setting.
That was Kerry’s post which I may have quoted the list of “yea” votes on:
http://www.nlg.org/news/releases/national-lawyers-guild-urges-us-government-cease-3-billion-annual-military-aid-israel (“National Lawyers Guild Urges US Government to Cease $3 Billion Annual Military Aid to Israel”)
STEVE B: No, I mean the entire conversation is inaccessible. Gone. By the way, that article bears no resemblance to what you posted.
DENEICE: Three people complained to me in private msg, incl. followers who were not even commenting in the thread. I didn’t want to un-friend you or them to un-friend me so I changed the post privacy setting. I created a ceasefire.
STEVE B: Well, I have no such restrictions. What were they complaining about, the truth? LOL!
DENEICE: I’ll check.
They all used the words “Closed-minded”. So there is no need to share the rest. I choose to end this discussion. Need coffee. Peace.
STEVE B: Ah, no problem, with “closed minded” meaning of a different opinion. How, well, CLOSED MINDED’ I also notice that you have no answer to my original question, above. I find that fascinating. LOL! Ciou, ciou.
[Message cannot be sent based on either the receivers’ privacy settings or yours.]
[later, via PM’s]
STEVE B: Paul, good discussion. Thanks. I was rereading it this morning, an activity I suggest you do too. Just one small point: You started by maintaining, “SteveB, Israel did not buy any land. They drove the Palestinians off the property they owned into refugee camps.” I proved that to be a falsehood. You then changed your tune to, “Sorry SteveB, those purchases ended in 1948. In 1947 the Jews only owned 7% of the land in what would become Israel.”
Then you made an inexplicable statement (to me, at least): “Just because you do not have an understanding of history, SteveB, does not mean I am in error.”
PAUL: Steve, I did not backtrack. The sorry was a shortened , sorry you are mistaken. Your standard of proof for yourself is very low. The discussion was about whether the Palestinians were driven from their land during the creation of Israel. The truth is they war and the Israelis took their land. Your article spoke about the purchase of land by Jews between the early 1900s until 1948. They had acquired 7% of the land on which Israel sits. Which would mean they too 93% of the land that was owned by the Palestinians. Which in the end means, the Jews did not buy the land.
If you are tired of distortions of history, you should quit using Israeli propaganda. Clearly you are depending on the cleansed and often inaccurate history you were taught in high school. You should remember the victors always write the history. They seldom do their enemy justice in that history. Israel was build on a foundation of propaganda.
STEVE B: You stated flat-out that they didn’t buy any land. After the war started, there was no one to buy it from. The entire conversation will be posted in my Facebook group, Friends of the Middle, and on my blog: http://www.friendsofthemiddle.org/blog, because I find it highly instructional and enlightening. DeNeice tells me my access to the conversation has been removed because people complained that I was “closed minded”. I take this to mean “of a different opinion”. I am sorry that you folks have such low regard for the truth. By the way, I am not Jewish, not a Zionist, and not on Israel’s side. I only seek a balanced telling of the truth. Have a nice day, Paul.
PAUL: You stated flat out that the they bought the land. I was 93% right and you were 7% right.
STEVE B: I only stated that you were wrong that they didn’t buy ANY land. Of course, I realize they only bought some. I never stated otherwise. I never said they bought all of Israel! READ! By the way, how many people or groups do you think own 7% of the US? That’s a huge amount of land. The Jews would have bought the rest had the entire Arab world not attacked them. The truth is very important to me and so are the exact meanings of words.
So interesting to me that pointing out some facts, or even having a difference of opinion is being “closed minded”. I call that kind of thinking Nazism!
PAUL: 7% is not nearly as huge as 93%. All of those purchases (as was clearly stated in that so called proof of yours) were made before the Palestinians were driven from their land. What I was taking about was the period after 1948 when Israel was created at the expense of the Palestinians. None of those Palestinians were compensated for their loss of their property. They left with only the clothes on their backs and whatever they could carry. Most of them spent the rest of lives in refugee camps.
When you cannot see the other side that is closed minded.
My position is that Israel is there to stay. But the expansion of Israel into the occupied territories has to end. The occupation of the West Bank has to end. The blockade of the Gaza Strip must end. How can a people cut off from the rest of the world have an economic life.
I should point out that Israel’s demand for land settlement in the West Bank is that the Palestinian state would be completely encompassed by Israeli controlled land.
STEVE B: I agree with much of what you say here, Paul. If you knew me, you’d know that I am about as un-closed-minded as they come. That does not mean I don’t honor truth. If you say you were “talking about the period after 1948″, I believe you, but you absolutely did NOT state that. You were unequivocal. “The Israelis did not buy land.” As Mark Twain said, “The difference between the right word and the almost right word is the difference between lightning and a lightning bug.” To be for the Arabs does not mean the truth must be thrown away. That was really my whole point. The truth should lead us to “right action”. I found little respect for the truth among my “opponents” in the entire discussion, only sympathy for the Arabs. I’m only fighting for balance.
PAUL: To be for the Israelis does not mean the truth should be thrown away. What you offer as truth is made up of a lot of propaganda.
Take the 30 minutes needed to hear Miko Peled’s statement of the facts:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4ZfnpN4Dfc
STEVE B: I have. Funny, he seems to be the only source you guys have (repeated 4 or 5 times in our discussion). I simply don’t believe his personal version of the “facts” corresponds to the truth as revealed by the history books and other, less prejudiced, accounts. It would really be hard to find a less reliable witness, when you think about it. I believe you are simply wrong about your idea of “propaganda”. I guess we should just agree to disagree. What i mind is the complete and utter condemnation of a person who believe differently than you or Kerry or DeNeice believe. I find that morally reprehensible, don’t you?
PAUL: Miko had had access to Israeli archives and meeting transcripts from the period of those wars. As well as having a high ranking Israeli participant as a father. I can think of no more reliable witness to what transpired. As I suspected you wish to ignore the facts to rely on your preconceived notions. History books are often prejudiced. I am right on the money with regard to the definition of propaganda.
STEVE B: Good for you, Paul. I couldn’t disagree more, so let the name-calling begin. Surely I am much worse than “closed-minded”. And that’s from DeNeice, who says she doesn’t believe in name-calling. Ah, the disrespect for truth and difference of opinion can be huge, no? Ciou, ciou.
